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How do you "roll" for an attack?


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One of the more frequent questions I get is how to roll for an attack. It can become confusing, especially for players learning the game, on how is the best way to determine the success or failure of an attack. It was always something I spent countless hours on and tried to find a happy medium. I was always fond of the mechanic we used in CAV1, both players rolled a die and added any modifiers that benefited them to the roll along with the weapons damage value (or the defenders armor). Higher roll won and the amount you rolled higher determined the damage. Now while that all seems simple, it could still be confusing a required both players to look at their values over and over and doubled the number of die rolled (multiples of the same weapon had to be rolled one at a time as well), increasing game time.

SO when I was putting together CAVSO I wanted to get back to that style of fighting but without some of the baggage. That's where target points came in. They are effectively the others player "roll" you are trying to beat. With close assault being less frequent, I left the older style roll in place as I noted I thought it was cool. This presents problem 1. For a target point roll you add attack bonuses and subtract defense bonuses, but for close assault you both add numbers. A bit confusing at first needless to say. Problem 2: When rolling you can choose where to add or subtract. Different players do it differently. They both get to the same place but depending on how you do it, you can add it one way while subtracting the other way. Very confusing.

Now as am getting the updated rules ready for inclusion in the Rules of Engagement book, its high time I get this cleaned up.  What I have learned is what makes sense to me doesn't always translate well. Every set of rules suffers from it a bit here or there.

When teaching new players I always do it this way:

1. Determine range band for base target point. I then subtract attacker mods from this number and then add defender mods giving me a single number. I like to use a d12 as a reminder of the number I'm rolling against. I roll one set of 2d6 for each attack, again so numbers don't get mixed up. Having various sets if differing colors is important here! 🙂

2. If its a miss I toss the roll aside. Once I have all my hits, I take them one at a time, adding my RAV and comparing to the defenders armor and check for damage. If I have multiple hits I keep a separate d6 to keep track (I never change a d12 damage dice till everything is done since the defender uses the original value throughout the attack).

Of course the problem here is we are subtracting (+) SMs and adding (-) SMs.

How to Fix in Update

Here is my current thought process on how to make it easier (and with that being said its never going to be as easy as rolling a pile of d6s vs a 1-6, CAV requires a bit of mind work and I guess being old school I'm ok with that. If I wanted to just roll a hand full of d6s I would play Yahtzee!)...

1. The 10+ roll type is gone. This was a modified target point that always gave you a chance to succeed no matter what. Its a CAV2 holdover and I think it wastes game time (if there is a chance it seems everyone tries, every time). So that just leaves regular target point and opposed rolls. You can still go ahead and roll Strike Points without figuring them up. After a couple of games you get pretty good at knowing what has a chance and what doesn't. If its close enough either way then go ahead and figure it up.

2. SMs need to be reversed so that they line up with target points better. (-) ones make the number lower (so easier), (+) ones make it higher, so harder. For close assault, one side will just have to flip them to a (+). SMs that affect CA are a lot less and shouldn't be a problem (hopefully!).

 

SO there you have my thoughts on it. Do you do it a different way that is easier? Let us know so new players can be less intimidated by the math and the numbers!

CB

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'm totally new to this system so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

Wouldn't it be more straightforward to compare attacker's "weapon value" + "targeting computer mod" versus defender's "armor value" + "ECM mod", so that if attacker's total is higher, it scores as many hits as it exceeds the defender's value? If less, defender isn't damaged but loses (1d3?) armor value going forward?

For each hit, defender can roll some sort of "save" against defender's "piloting skill" or its equivalent? Critical hits and effects would occur based on attacker rolling a (d6?) against the damage inflicted - if the roll is less than the damage, one (or more?) critical hits occur.

Just thinking out loud without knowing the rules yet, beyond your description here, so this could be nonsense, or even heresy! 😁

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1 hour ago, Goodtobetheking said:

I'm totally new to this system so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

Wouldn't it be more straightforward to compare attacker's "weapon value" + "targeting computer mod" versus defender's "armor value" + "ECM mod", so that if attacker's total is higher, it scores as many hits as it exceeds the defender's value? If less, defender isn't damaged but loses (1d3?) armor value going forward?

For each hit, defender can roll some sort of "save" against defender's "piloting skill" or its equivalent? Critical hits and effects would occur based on attacker rolling a (d6?) against the damage inflicted - if the roll is less than the damage, one (or more?) critical hits occur.

Just thinking out loud without knowing the rules yet, beyond your description here, so this could be nonsense, or even heresy! 😁

Welcome to the game, super glad to hear from you!

The damage in CAV isn't equal to the number of success the attack roll exceeds the defense numbers. instead, that value (called an MoS - Margin of Success) is cross referenced to the damage table. Most results yield 1-3 points of damage.

@CAVBOSS is working on streamlining the rules for an update. FYI, he also streams on Twitch Wednesday nights at 8pm CST where he will answer most any question. Last week he talked a lot about upcoming rule changes.

 

Talon Games on Twitch

CavBoss talking about upcoming rule changes on YouTube

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12 hours ago, The Red Baron said:

Welcome to the game, super glad to hear from you!

The damage in CAV isn't equal to the number of success the attack roll exceeds the defense numbers. instead, that value (called an MoS - Margin of Success) is cross referenced to the damage table. Most results yield 1-3 points of damage.

@CAVBOSS is working on streamlining the rules for an update. FYI, he also streams on Twitch Wednesday nights at 8pm CST where he will answer most any question. Last week he talked a lot about upcoming rule changes.

 

Talon Games on Twitch

CavBoss talking about upcoming rule changes on YouTube

Thanks for the welcome, info and links! Are the upcoming rule changes going to be addenda or a new version of rules? If the former I'll spring for the current CAV SO, and if the latter, I'd prefer to wait and buy a new edition.

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